Hey Everyone,
Wow, I've fired of a lot of Highlight posts today. Here's the collection of what I've fired off all in one shot, to defend against what is going around the Trads Behaving Badly blogosphere, by Traditionalists themselves (with a little of my personal $0.02 added in), with regards to the La Repubblica interview with the Italian atheist.
The interview that started it all, from La Repubblica: http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/papa_francesco_a_scalfari_cos_cambier_la_chiesa-67630792/
The Vatican, put it on their website (not a smart move until it's fully translated and evaluated): http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/october/index_en.htm
And now, the apologetics posts against some of the crazy claims floating around the TBB blogosphere and critics of Pope Francis:
1) Big Blue Wave - General defense against how the TBBs are slamming Pope Francis because of the La Repubblica interview.
POST 1 - http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2013/10/highlight-big-blue-wave-says-it-best.html
POST 2 - http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2013/10/highlight-big-blue-wave-says-it-best_2.html
2) Kevin Tierney of Common Sense Catholicism - Latin Mass Traditionalist who has done apologetics, and continues to do so. He's now in my sidebars under "GladTrad/Defenders ..."
Post 1 - My Two cents. http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2013/10/highlight-2-part-1-my-two-cents-on.html
Post 2 - Kevin's Take on the Youth Unemployment and Lonely Old People line (which are both tied together) - http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2013/10/highlight-2-part-ii-kevin-tierney.html
3) Fr. John Zuhlsdorf - Traditionalist Blogging Priest who says the EF/Latin Mass blog is "What Does the Prayer Really Say" after his ability to dissect the Latin of prayers in the Mass. Speaks out about the "conscience" line and Jesus being incarnate in the souls of men mis-translation (that makes it look like the Pope promotes heresy and pantheism):
Post 1 - http://torontotlmserving.blogspot.ca/2013/10/highlight-3-great-fr-z-counters-trads.html
Now, you got everything together. Have a fun read. Pax, Julian.
Showing posts with label Big Blue Wave. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Big Blue Wave. Show all posts
Wednesday, 2 October 2013
Highlight: Big Blue Wave Says it Best About the Pope's Latest Interview post 2
Here's the addendum or 2nd post that Big Blue Wave has regarding the Francis' Italian interview. I've boldfaced some important points:
"Addendum to last night's blogpost about Pope Francis' latest interview and the commotion around it.
Remember that the devil will use ANYTHING to turn us against the Church or Jesus Christ. Including our own orthodoxy. Strange as that sounds, the devil will use our own orthodoxy against us to separate us from the Church, and ultimately Jesus.
It is possible to make orthodoxy into an idol replacing Jesus. We become so busy in pursuing orthodoxy, that we forget the ultimate goal.
The goal is not to give popes and other clergy litmus tests. Don't get me wrong, orthodoxy is very important. But our goal is not to make the Church orthodox. Our goal is to save souls. Orthodoxy is necessary but it's not the only way to save souls. By that I mean some people come into the Church from an intellectual point of view, and so orthodoxy is really important.
But other people come to the Church from a mystical standpoint, because we have the Eucharist. Or from a psychological standpoint, because Christ healed them of a wound.
These are all valid means to save souls.
We are rightly disgusted with the dissent in our Church. But that disgust shouldn't turn into a monomania where it`s the be-all and end-all of being Catholic. 'Cuz it`s not.
There are people in the world who don't think a lot about doctrine who are legitimate Catholics.
The purpose of doctrine is to bring people to Christ, but for some people, it's not what leads. It's the Eucharist, or some spiritual or psychological aspect that brings them to Christ. We shouldn't be so pharasaical that we have to evaluate everyone by their orthodoxy.
Everyone is at a different place in their spiritual life, and some people aren't not into doctrine right now. What is unacceptable is when people have an agenda to spread serious errors. This we rightly oppose.
Our faith isn't reduced to doctrines. I guess this is what I'm trying to get at. Our faith is an encounter with Jesus Christ to bring us closer to him. Doctrines help us with that, but doctrines are not the only thing. Our faith is not a theology test. Our faith is to love Christ and through him our neighbour. If someone doesn`t really know the Marian doctrines, that`s not so good, but if he tries hard to love God and his neighbour, that's the main thing. It`s not the only thing, but it's the main one.
Some people might discard that path because it's ignorant and not theological. That person is a not-good-enough Catholic because they don't even bother to learn their faith. [The author is saying here what a radical or "orthodox" Catholic would think to disregard his/her more "ignorant" brother or sister in Christ] While of course we should all learn our faith, but this is what St. Paul said when we shouldn't argue with those weak in the faith. We have to begin where people are at.
If we expect people to be doctrinal experts before they can be acceptable Catholics, then we're acting like Pharisees. We look down on people who were poorly catechized, or those who try to accompany them.
And in this way, the devil makes use of our commitment to orthodoxy and faithfulness to separate from Christ. We become full of pride and we say to ourselves: well those Catholics are no good, they haven't learned their catechism yet.
Instead of looking down on Catholics who aren't well-versed, we should try to care about them, and see what we can do to bring them one step forward to Christ. For some people it's difficult because it involves actual caring and empathy, and instead of putting forward information or an argument.
It's still something we need to learn."
"Addendum to last night's blogpost about Pope Francis' latest interview and the commotion around it.
Remember that the devil will use ANYTHING to turn us against the Church or Jesus Christ. Including our own orthodoxy. Strange as that sounds, the devil will use our own orthodoxy against us to separate us from the Church, and ultimately Jesus.
It is possible to make orthodoxy into an idol replacing Jesus. We become so busy in pursuing orthodoxy, that we forget the ultimate goal.
The goal is not to give popes and other clergy litmus tests. Don't get me wrong, orthodoxy is very important. But our goal is not to make the Church orthodox. Our goal is to save souls. Orthodoxy is necessary but it's not the only way to save souls. By that I mean some people come into the Church from an intellectual point of view, and so orthodoxy is really important.
But other people come to the Church from a mystical standpoint, because we have the Eucharist. Or from a psychological standpoint, because Christ healed them of a wound.
These are all valid means to save souls.
We are rightly disgusted with the dissent in our Church. But that disgust shouldn't turn into a monomania where it`s the be-all and end-all of being Catholic. 'Cuz it`s not.
There are people in the world who don't think a lot about doctrine who are legitimate Catholics.
The purpose of doctrine is to bring people to Christ, but for some people, it's not what leads. It's the Eucharist, or some spiritual or psychological aspect that brings them to Christ. We shouldn't be so pharasaical that we have to evaluate everyone by their orthodoxy.
Everyone is at a different place in their spiritual life, and some people aren't not into doctrine right now. What is unacceptable is when people have an agenda to spread serious errors. This we rightly oppose.
Our faith isn't reduced to doctrines. I guess this is what I'm trying to get at. Our faith is an encounter with Jesus Christ to bring us closer to him. Doctrines help us with that, but doctrines are not the only thing. Our faith is not a theology test. Our faith is to love Christ and through him our neighbour. If someone doesn`t really know the Marian doctrines, that`s not so good, but if he tries hard to love God and his neighbour, that's the main thing. It`s not the only thing, but it's the main one.
Some people might discard that path because it's ignorant and not theological. That person is a not-good-enough Catholic because they don't even bother to learn their faith. [The author is saying here what a radical or "orthodox" Catholic would think to disregard his/her more "ignorant" brother or sister in Christ] While of course we should all learn our faith, but this is what St. Paul said when we shouldn't argue with those weak in the faith. We have to begin where people are at.
If we expect people to be doctrinal experts before they can be acceptable Catholics, then we're acting like Pharisees. We look down on people who were poorly catechized, or those who try to accompany them.
And in this way, the devil makes use of our commitment to orthodoxy and faithfulness to separate from Christ. We become full of pride and we say to ourselves: well those Catholics are no good, they haven't learned their catechism yet.
Instead of looking down on Catholics who aren't well-versed, we should try to care about them, and see what we can do to bring them one step forward to Christ. For some people it's difficult because it involves actual caring and empathy, and instead of putting forward information or an argument.
It's still something we need to learn."
Highlight: Big Blue Wave Says it Best About the Pope's Latest Interview post 1
Hello Everyone,
Funny, one of my colleagues on Facebook says something to the extent that Pope Francis will be an interesting pope that will truly show us how Catholic we really are.
I take it further and say that Pope Francis is a litmus test that will truly show our real core of our soul, to be one of the following: Pope Francis will test you, and reveal that you really are:
1) A "Judas"/false Catholic, who lies about their practice and adherence to the Faith, and really doesn't love Christ, and really should just go about not calling themselves "Catholic."
2) A true and active Catholic who does love our Lord and seeks to be as perfect as he was, being devout and truthful to the Catholic Faith and believing in all the truths it contains, as well as living out said Catholic Faith and rejecting the empty lies of His enemy, the Devil OR
3) He will expose the Pharisee that you really are, a Trad Behaving Badly, that while you cross your I's and dot your T's, you truly, deep down are only Catholic by law, but are not at the core of your soul. You lack the virtue of Charity, do Satan's will via said Pharisaical behaviours, focusing on externals and a rigorist practice of the faith that makes the Catholic Faith SEEM elitist and secluded, and abusing the Latin Mass/Liturgy for selfish means outside of its true purpose. The old: "Saint on Sunday, Sinner the other 6 days of the week" as it were.
Personally, I want to aim for #2, thank you. And if you have been reading the multitude of posts I've written here the past year on S.U.D., you'll see based on what I cover and how in depth I am in both forms of the Roman Rite in the Church, that I do not want to let 3) be my fate at the litmus test of Pope Francis. And we should strive for the same.
Anyhow, I wanted to go in depth on what I've witnessed and seen from some of my colleagues and/or other coverage on the internet. Pope Francis' interview with an Italian atheist of La Republica, has caused much outrage amongst the blogosphere and produced some comments on Facebook too. However, another conservative, Catholic blogger has beat me to it, though his/her focus is usually pro-life issues.
Big Blue Wave, has been around the blogosphere for a while, speaking mainly on pro-life and family issues. But he/she has taken time away from that to comment on the whole Francis debacle, sharing my exact sentiments and feelings. I'll let Big Blue do the talking in two posts, which I will be posting in full here and in a second highlight post, because I think it is absolutely important you read all the text.
Pax, Julian. Here's the first one, thought for the sake of shrinking the post I'll be removing spaces put into the text:
"The orthodox hissy fit over the pope's latest interview annoys the crap out of me.
First of all, given that the interviewer is an atheist, we're not even sure if the pope's words were correctly conveyed. Secondly, there is the issue of translation. Third: Can't a pope have a conversation with an atheist without it turning into exhibit A for his heresy trial?
Sure, the conversation was recorded. But it's a conversation.
I'll reveal a deep, dark secret about me. Sometimes, when I'm offline and you're not all paying attention: I talk about things other than abortion. I don't even talk about orthodoxy. Or dissent.
Sometimes, I think about how to make myself a better Catholic. And get out the smelling salts for this one: I even think about helping the poor.
Does it boggle the mind? Give yourself a good whiff.
Okay, maybe I'm being a bit presumptuous, because I'm not the pope after all. I mean, nobody ultimately cares what I think about abortion or orthodoxy. Except, maybe, you. :)
But if this is the case for me, why shouldn't it be the case for the pope?
It doesn't make him a bad Catholic. So you're saying to yourself: but the babies... the dissent.
I get it. I share your concerns. Nonetheless, what he's doing is not at cross purposes of what we want to do.
Don't we want to bring people to Christ? Isn't that the pope's number one job? Won't that make people more pro-life?
And I know that this is going to make people mad, but you don't bring people to Christ by leading with abortion or talking about how sinful it is to dissent from Church teaching.
If you hadn't noticed, it's not like us orthodox Catholics have done a really bang up job of bringing converts to the Church, or even just keeping baptized Catholics Catholic. Yes, yes, we blame all the professional Catholics, and the bishops, etc. But ultimately, being the bearers of the Truth, it's not like we've driving people to the Church in droves.
We bear that responsibility. How many people have YOU brought into the Church? Given the numbers of people who go to Mass, I'm going to say that on average you've probably brought zero people into the Church.
We've had the internet for 20 years now. We've been able to reach a lot of people. And sure, orthodox Catholics have done a lot to improve the doctrinal atmosphere of the institutional Church but newsflash: [there's] just not that many people joining. The net growth has not been very good.
And maybe it's swell to be a smaller but more faithful Church, but that doesn't improve the fate of lost souls out there...
Pope Francis has the ear of people who would otherwise not give the Catholic Church the time of day. Why is that so wrong?
He's not going to talk about abortion and orthodoxy when talking to an atheist, just like he's not going to talk to Jews about Jesus' Resurrection or Muslims about his Divinity, certainly not on the first or second date.
This is how normal relationships work. People don't lead with "Hi, I believe in Jesus Christ, are you saved?" Not in Canada, anyway. Normal people don't work that way so neither should we. St. Paul said to become all things to all people, and it's no different for us faithful Catholics.
We're so wrapped up in culture war battles we sometimes forget how to be normal human beings. I'm as guilty as anyone. To some extent, we enjoy the battle. We revel in saving babies, the beauty of Church teaching, and bringing greater glory to God. This is normal for faithful Catholics. There is nothing wrong with that.
But the rest of the world doesn't think like that. I understand that the rest of the world gets on our nerves because it doesn't operate on the premises that we like, and on top of that it mocks us for our beliefs, so we retreat into our comfortable little circles and don't bother to stick our necks out so that we can't avoid the discomfort of facing the world's anti-Catholicism.
I completely get that.
But it doesn't bring souls to Christ. It doesn't make faith seem normal. There are people in this world who don't know a single faithful Catholic. Even though there are a billion Catholics in this world.
Whose fault is that? Is it the bishops'? It's time we stop always blaming the clergy for everything, notwithstanding the weight of responsibility they do bear.
Pope Francis is showing us how it's done-- how to talk to people like normal human beings.
The pope is not going to lead with teachings from encyclicals, much as I love them. He is not going to lead with abortion. That's probably why he didn't mention it as the top evil. He didn't want the conversation to go down that path and be railroaded into another culture war discussion that doesn't anywhere. He wanted to talk about things that this atheist wanted to talk about.
He wanted to start where people are at.
I'm not too good at this stuff. It doesn't mean it shouldn't get done. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn. Does this mean that we stop talking about abortion and that we stop speaking out against dissent? NO!!!
Our concerns about abortion, and modernism and orthodoxy and the whole culture war litany of issues are completely valid.
But being a Catholic is like being a guy with the spinning plates. Remember those from the Ed Sullivan days? We can't just spin one or two plates. We have to spin all the plates. Culture war, orthodoxy, saving souls, missionary work, charitable work, prayer, etc etc.
Being Catholic is not just about one thing. It's about everything. So we can't just get ticked off when the pope doesn't lead with our issues. The best predictor of future results is past results.
In the past, Pope Francis has come out strongly in defense of human life. He is strongly orthodox.
He will not disappoint us. We have to stop acting like we have no lessons to receive from our pope just because he's not talking about our issues this very moment.
He's giving us an important lesson on how to reach out to people.
Given our poor record of reaching out to people outside our circles and bringing them in, maybe we should be paying attention. And I will now don my industrial strength flamesuit."
Funny, one of my colleagues on Facebook says something to the extent that Pope Francis will be an interesting pope that will truly show us how Catholic we really are.
I take it further and say that Pope Francis is a litmus test that will truly show our real core of our soul, to be one of the following: Pope Francis will test you, and reveal that you really are:
1) A "Judas"/false Catholic, who lies about their practice and adherence to the Faith, and really doesn't love Christ, and really should just go about not calling themselves "Catholic."
2) A true and active Catholic who does love our Lord and seeks to be as perfect as he was, being devout and truthful to the Catholic Faith and believing in all the truths it contains, as well as living out said Catholic Faith and rejecting the empty lies of His enemy, the Devil OR
3) He will expose the Pharisee that you really are, a Trad Behaving Badly, that while you cross your I's and dot your T's, you truly, deep down are only Catholic by law, but are not at the core of your soul. You lack the virtue of Charity, do Satan's will via said Pharisaical behaviours, focusing on externals and a rigorist practice of the faith that makes the Catholic Faith SEEM elitist and secluded, and abusing the Latin Mass/Liturgy for selfish means outside of its true purpose. The old: "Saint on Sunday, Sinner the other 6 days of the week" as it were.
Personally, I want to aim for #2, thank you. And if you have been reading the multitude of posts I've written here the past year on S.U.D., you'll see based on what I cover and how in depth I am in both forms of the Roman Rite in the Church, that I do not want to let 3) be my fate at the litmus test of Pope Francis. And we should strive for the same.
Anyhow, I wanted to go in depth on what I've witnessed and seen from some of my colleagues and/or other coverage on the internet. Pope Francis' interview with an Italian atheist of La Republica, has caused much outrage amongst the blogosphere and produced some comments on Facebook too. However, another conservative, Catholic blogger has beat me to it, though his/her focus is usually pro-life issues.
Big Blue Wave, has been around the blogosphere for a while, speaking mainly on pro-life and family issues. But he/she has taken time away from that to comment on the whole Francis debacle, sharing my exact sentiments and feelings. I'll let Big Blue do the talking in two posts, which I will be posting in full here and in a second highlight post, because I think it is absolutely important you read all the text.
Pax, Julian. Here's the first one, thought for the sake of shrinking the post I'll be removing spaces put into the text:
"The orthodox hissy fit over the pope's latest interview annoys the crap out of me.
First of all, given that the interviewer is an atheist, we're not even sure if the pope's words were correctly conveyed. Secondly, there is the issue of translation. Third: Can't a pope have a conversation with an atheist without it turning into exhibit A for his heresy trial?
Sure, the conversation was recorded. But it's a conversation.
I'll reveal a deep, dark secret about me. Sometimes, when I'm offline and you're not all paying attention: I talk about things other than abortion. I don't even talk about orthodoxy. Or dissent.
Sometimes, I think about how to make myself a better Catholic. And get out the smelling salts for this one: I even think about helping the poor.
Does it boggle the mind? Give yourself a good whiff.
Okay, maybe I'm being a bit presumptuous, because I'm not the pope after all. I mean, nobody ultimately cares what I think about abortion or orthodoxy. Except, maybe, you. :)
But if this is the case for me, why shouldn't it be the case for the pope?
It doesn't make him a bad Catholic. So you're saying to yourself: but the babies... the dissent.
I get it. I share your concerns. Nonetheless, what he's doing is not at cross purposes of what we want to do.
Don't we want to bring people to Christ? Isn't that the pope's number one job? Won't that make people more pro-life?
And I know that this is going to make people mad, but you don't bring people to Christ by leading with abortion or talking about how sinful it is to dissent from Church teaching.
If you hadn't noticed, it's not like us orthodox Catholics have done a really bang up job of bringing converts to the Church, or even just keeping baptized Catholics Catholic. Yes, yes, we blame all the professional Catholics, and the bishops, etc. But ultimately, being the bearers of the Truth, it's not like we've driving people to the Church in droves.
We bear that responsibility. How many people have YOU brought into the Church? Given the numbers of people who go to Mass, I'm going to say that on average you've probably brought zero people into the Church.
We've had the internet for 20 years now. We've been able to reach a lot of people. And sure, orthodox Catholics have done a lot to improve the doctrinal atmosphere of the institutional Church but newsflash: [there's] just not that many people joining. The net growth has not been very good.
And maybe it's swell to be a smaller but more faithful Church, but that doesn't improve the fate of lost souls out there...
Pope Francis has the ear of people who would otherwise not give the Catholic Church the time of day. Why is that so wrong?
He's not going to talk about abortion and orthodoxy when talking to an atheist, just like he's not going to talk to Jews about Jesus' Resurrection or Muslims about his Divinity, certainly not on the first or second date.
This is how normal relationships work. People don't lead with "Hi, I believe in Jesus Christ, are you saved?" Not in Canada, anyway. Normal people don't work that way so neither should we. St. Paul said to become all things to all people, and it's no different for us faithful Catholics.
We're so wrapped up in culture war battles we sometimes forget how to be normal human beings. I'm as guilty as anyone. To some extent, we enjoy the battle. We revel in saving babies, the beauty of Church teaching, and bringing greater glory to God. This is normal for faithful Catholics. There is nothing wrong with that.
But the rest of the world doesn't think like that. I understand that the rest of the world gets on our nerves because it doesn't operate on the premises that we like, and on top of that it mocks us for our beliefs, so we retreat into our comfortable little circles and don't bother to stick our necks out so that we can't avoid the discomfort of facing the world's anti-Catholicism.
I completely get that.
But it doesn't bring souls to Christ. It doesn't make faith seem normal. There are people in this world who don't know a single faithful Catholic. Even though there are a billion Catholics in this world.
Whose fault is that? Is it the bishops'? It's time we stop always blaming the clergy for everything, notwithstanding the weight of responsibility they do bear.
Pope Francis is showing us how it's done-- how to talk to people like normal human beings.
The pope is not going to lead with teachings from encyclicals, much as I love them. He is not going to lead with abortion. That's probably why he didn't mention it as the top evil. He didn't want the conversation to go down that path and be railroaded into another culture war discussion that doesn't anywhere. He wanted to talk about things that this atheist wanted to talk about.
He wanted to start where people are at.
I'm not too good at this stuff. It doesn't mean it shouldn't get done. It doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn. Does this mean that we stop talking about abortion and that we stop speaking out against dissent? NO!!!
Our concerns about abortion, and modernism and orthodoxy and the whole culture war litany of issues are completely valid.
But being a Catholic is like being a guy with the spinning plates. Remember those from the Ed Sullivan days? We can't just spin one or two plates. We have to spin all the plates. Culture war, orthodoxy, saving souls, missionary work, charitable work, prayer, etc etc.
Being Catholic is not just about one thing. It's about everything. So we can't just get ticked off when the pope doesn't lead with our issues. The best predictor of future results is past results.
In the past, Pope Francis has come out strongly in defense of human life. He is strongly orthodox.
He will not disappoint us. We have to stop acting like we have no lessons to receive from our pope just because he's not talking about our issues this very moment.
He's giving us an important lesson on how to reach out to people.
Given our poor record of reaching out to people outside our circles and bringing them in, maybe we should be paying attention. And I will now don my industrial strength flamesuit."
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)